Criminalize whore customers?

Despite her young age of 33, Gitte has been a prostitute for 20 years. She is now deputy head of the Prostitutes' Interest Organization in Norway (PION) and active in the Network against criminalization of sex purchases.

And then Gitte is a member of SV.

Kari Anne Moe is 27 years studying documentary. For three years she was the leader of Socialist Youth.

Today, Kari Anne is a female political leader in the SV.

- And then I am a board member of Grünerløkka SV, says Kari Anne.

- So strange, I am also a member of Grünerløkka SV, says Gitte, who does not want to stand out with her full name and picture.

So far, the two SV women haven't had much time to get involved in the SV team on the eastern edge of Oslo. On the other hand, both are very committed to the issue of prostitution and the extent to which it is appropriate to criminalize prostitutes.

And here, prostitutes Gitte and women's political leader Kari Anne stand on either side of the barricades in a party that is divided, but which will try to reach a consensus and decision at the SV's national meeting in one year's time.

- Poverty problems

- I think Gitte and I agree a lot; that we both want to improve conditions for prostitutes and prevent recruitment. But my starting point is that prostitution is an abuse of women. It is often argued that prostitution is the world's oldest profession. It reveals a negative view of men. Men's behavior can change. At the same time, we cannot signal that men should have the right to buy sex. Pimping is already criminalized. There is also advertising and facilitation of prostitution. A natural follow-up is to criminalize whore customers. Then we state that it is not acceptable to buy sex, begins Kari Anne, who both now and throughout the duel with Gitte will emphasize that criminalization is just one of several measures she believes should be implemented in the fight against prostitution.

- My view on prostitution is that it is a poverty problem. Prostitution exists because it is the only way out for many. Others do it because it is an easier way than going to the social services office. I agree that many of the girls are upset and hate the job. Basically, I am against prostitution; I wish the girls could have chosen differently. But at least criminalization does not help us, says Gitte.

And then she points out how criminalizing prostitution in many states in the United States has led to increased violence and harsher environment because prostitution is forced underground. In her opinion, the criminalization of whore customers in Sweden has also made matters worse.

- According to a police report from Malmö, prostitution has increased after the law on criminalization was introduced a few years ago. But because the girls no longer appear in the street scene, the help measures have been reduced. I discussed this with a social worker in Sweden. They do not know where the prostitutes have gone, and then it is not possible to help them either. The way the girls now work, and that it takes place in secret, makes it much easier for violent customers to abuse the girls, says Gitte.

- Bananas

The deputy head of the prostitution interest organization believes that conditions in Norway have already become bad.

- In the 1990s, the police carried out several major actions against the prostitution community. And the women's movement stood and threw stones in through the windows of the massage parlors. As a result, 70 per cent of prostitution today is hidden in Oslo, while only 30 per cent is in the open. It used to be that if a customer went bananas at a massage parlor on a Friday night, we could call the police, who came and threw him out. We can not do that if it is criminalized. It's been 16 years since I quit drugs. But when I was a drug addict, I went on the streets. There are a lot of crazy customers, and as it is now, the girls there can evaluate the customers before they hop in a car. But if it is criminalized and customers can be fined, the girls must jump into the car quickly without having time to assess the risk, says Gitte, who – of all things, many may say – has previously been on the Women's Front.

SV's women's political leader does not immediately agree that Gitte's references to Sweden are the only evidence of how criminalization has worked in neighboring countries.

- If the customers are able to find the prostitutes, then the help apparatus must also be able to do so. On the other side; the experiences from countries where they have legalized prostitution are no better, says Kari Anne.

- No, it's gotten worse there. I am against a legalization, Gitte agrees.

- In Australia, they have a brothel that has been listed on the stock exchange. What does it say about the view of women, Kari Anne asks.

Contradictory about Sweden

- But what about women's right to decide over their own bodies. The women's movement is very concerned about this in relation to abortion. Why not when it comes to us prostitutes? Criminalization cannot whisper a need. Prostitution is also about the relationship between women and men, and will therefore always be there, Gitte believes.

- I want it not to be acceptable to buy a body, says Kari Anne.

- But I'm not selling my body. If that was what I did, I would not be sitting here, Gitte answers.

- What do you mean, Kari Anne asks.

- Prostitution is an act. I sell a service that others want. It does not help me to criminalize it.

- Do not misunderstand me; I'm not for criminalizing prostitutes.

- But if it is the case that criminalization of prostitutes is attitude-creating, why does prostitution increase in Sweden then?

- As I said, there are conflicting reports about it. But the law gives a signal that it is not acceptable for men to buy sex, Kari Anne repeats.

- What reports, I would like to read, says Gitte.

- Not rape

- It is said that it is difficult to prove that such a law will work positively in practice. But we introduced laws against rape and domestic violence earlier because we thought it was right. Even then, it was claimed that it would be difficult to enforce the law, says Kari Anne.

- If you want less violence, it is against its purpose to criminalize whore customers. Of course it should be illegal to commit violence. But it is important to distinguish between violence and prostitution. I want to sell my services to as many customers as possible. It can not be compared to rape or violence, Gitte replies.

- I do not see any contradiction between saying that we do not accept the purchase of sex, and being for several measures at the same time. To know how we can help the prostitutes, for example, the environment must be mapped, says Kari Anne.

- Why criminalization, then? It has already been shown in Norway that it becomes more difficult to map because the environment operates in secret, says Gitte.

- But all types of crime are mapped, not least because it is crime, Kari Anne replies.

- Patriarchal structures

The conversation returns to the economy as a cause of prostitution. Both agree that if society had been radically changed and all poverty was abolished, it would have been the best basis for eliminating the need for prostitution.

But a revolution in the near future is not exactly the most eye-catching opportunity, not even seen with SV eyes.

- Why only implement one measure? I want the abolition of all power imbalance between men and women. This is also about structures between the sexes. Violence against women can be an identity-building project for men. One cannot detach prostitution from patriarchal structures. We will not achieve gender equality as long as prostitution is allowed to continue. It is underestimating men to say that men just have to have sex. Men who are prostitutes should be able to be sentenced to treatment, Kari Anne believes.

- Meet us with respect

- You say a lot of good things about what should be done, but you want to start with criminalization, says the prostitute woman.

- No, I do not just want to start with that. We must also work for an economic equalization between the sexes in the long term, SV's women's political leader answers.

- It is not a concrete measure for us prostitutes. You say criminalization is the attitude, and only one of the measures. What else do you specifically want to do?

- SV works every day for a development of the welfare state in Norway. And women who are on their way out of prostitution must be offered support, also financially. A proposal could be a "final package" for former prostitutes that must be introduced at the same time as the law on criminalization is passed. You assume that criminalization will make it more difficult for you. But not all professional circles believe that criminalization of prostitutes is wrong. And a former prostitute once told me that going against criminalization for the girls' sake is doing them a disservice, Kari Anne answers.

- Yes, it is clearly easy for those who have previously been prostitutes to forget how dependent they were on the money they earned on this once. It is a pity. And it is not true that the professional community is divided on this. All the measures aimed at prostitutes in Norway support us, as well as many researchers and the police. Those who stand against us in this case are the crisis centers. But as I see it, the shelters have always been a measure for abused and raped women, and therefore they have their area of ​​expertise there. I know that many prostitutes are victims and experience prostitution as violence. I have worked as an indoor prostitute since the early 1990s. I know that the double life many girls live leads to side effects such as isolation, anxiety and low self-esteem. I do not mean to say that prostitution is positive. But you must meet the prostitutes with respect for the situation we are in. Building trust is the most important measure now. A clarity in the tax situation could also give the girls at least a small thing to worry about, if they should dare to ask for help. There is a lot of fear around this in the whole environment, and many already dare not use existing measures, says Gitte.

- Many are lonely

However, Kari Anne believes that this is not just about the prostitutes.

- We are experiencing a backlash in relation to feminist struggle. Prostitution is also about all women, and about all men. Criminalization of prostitutes is therefore not just about how we should help the prostitutes, but also about hegemony, about what is okay and not okay in a society. In this sense, I agree with Gitte that criminalization is not necessarily the measure that will help the prostitutes as well as other measures in the short term, Kari Anne admits.

- My main point is precisely that criminalization is the wrong strategy to do something about the problems, Gitte emphasizes.

But she herself does not feel that men have power over her as a prostitute.

- We have a lot of humor in this; we find that many men are jovial, insecure and even very polite when they come to us. It is very rare that I experience that men want to control me. I simply do not believe that prostitution is a result of power. In earlier times, people had respect for the prostitutes. But with Christianity, sex became a sin and a shame. No, I think prostitution is a result of men and women not talking to each other. The male role has changed. Many people do not dare or do not quite know how to check up on a lady. Many are lonely.

- What you say about the whore customers now seems much more innocent than what you said earlier, Kari Anne adds.

- Of course, there are also violent guests. But there are very few of them. In the 12 years I have worked in Oslo, I have only experienced three episodes where it has been necessary to call the police. It is the girls on the street who are most unprotected and vulnerable. But I do not feel that I am oppressed by those who come to me, Gitte answers.

- The common denominator is gender

The women's political leader in SV does not want to admit that prostitution is suppressing women. Why is it that only women are prostitutes?

- The most important common feature is gender; men are customers and women are prostitutes. There is a reason for this. We are still the opposite sex, there is a lot of truth in that. That women are overrepresented as prostitutes has something to do with role patterns. In the porn industry, men are the main users. It has something to do with who should please others, says Kari Anne.

- Being a victim does not have to mean that you feel weak, Kari Anne explains.

- It is we who have something to offer, it is not we who are weak.

- Being a victim is not a personal trait, it is about the fact that we as girls statistically earn less than men.

- Why? It can also be about us women choosing to be more at home with children, that we do not prioritize work as highly as men. In Norway, it is to a greater extent a choice for women whether they want to become a doctor or a nurse, and pursue a career.

- The point is that we girls must see that we are part of a woman-oppressive structure, and that we should do something about it. For how free are our choices really, Kari Anne asks.

SV's female political leader and deputy leader of PION do not agree with this round. Kari Anne believes that prostitution is about gender roles and oppression.

- That's why this is about everyone. My gender is represented as a prostitute. Yours is represented as a prostitute, she says with reference to Ny Tid's correspondent.

Gitte, for his part, finds it difficult to have absolute principles in relation to prostitution. At least criminalization will not help her and other prostitutes. It will not reduce prostitution, rather hide it.

- That men buy sex is a societal problem. I do not want to judge anyone. This is not something men alone have to deal with. More openness and attitude-creating work is what I think will help prevent some men from buying services from prostitutes, says Gitte.

And with that, the two members of the Grünerløkka SV this year will be fighting for their views in the party.