Francesca P. Albanese (born 1977) is an Italian international lawyer and academic. In May 2022, she was appointed UN Special Rapporteur for the Occupied Palestinian Territories for a period of three years. She is the first woman in this position in thirty years.
MODERN TIMES met her for a longer interview – both in SIRACUSA and in Catania in Sicily this summer.

Albanese now lives in Tunis with his family. She previously lived in Jerusalem for three years – and saw life there from the inside. This year she has had to cancel other work and teaching. As she told me: "What has happened in the occupied Palestinian territories since October has become overwhelming, and the Special Rapporteur's mandate has taken precedence over my other professional obligations."
"Israel does not listen to the International Court of Justice, Security Council, which ordered a ceasefire, or the Human Rights Council, which called for an arms embargo.”

Albanese's report to the UN in March was about genocide. Among other things, we discuss how important a report documenting such atrocities can have. How much power does international law actually give to those who use it? As we have seen, Israel does not listen to international criticism:
"It is about the effectiveness of international law and the multilateral system. It's not just that Israel not listening to me or my reports. Israel does not listen to the International Court of Justice; Security Council; who ordered a truce; or the Human Rights Council, which called for an arms embargo.”

(The film is directed by Truls Lie, made in Sicily with interviews in Siracusa and Catania.)

"The multilateral system has become a display of inefficiency. There are now more people who do not believe that international law can work anymore. Israel and USA is about to turn the clock back a hundred years. And this is risky.
I am not totally blinded by international law. At the same time, I believe that a society that wants to live in order gives itself rules and respects these rules in order to preserve an order that ensures peace and security for everyone, without discrimination. What we are primarily heading towards with the USA, Israel and other Western states, and which very few states are making a real effort to stop, is a lawless world."

United Nations (UN)

I wonder if it is frustrating to see so many abuses up close without directly influencing those who have the executive power to do something: “I am an independent expert at the UN. So I do not myself have the executive power to make executive decisions about policy myself. I advise FN. I make recommendations to the member states. I produce unbiased analyses. My power is in my voice. That's all.”

And how strong is the UN today? Is the organization really listened to by the states? “The UN is more fragmented than ever. You have UN officials trying to uncover and talk about what they see, about the risks behind what they see, and about the lack of action and accountability. But ultimately it is about powerful states that govern and determine the course of action."

"Israel and the United States are turning back the clock a hundred years."

How can Israel be a member of the UN and not listen to the organization's resolutions, I wonder. Shouldn't the state have been expelled? "Israel is a recognized member of the UN and violates international law through and through. But this is not something that only applies to Israel. In fact, I do not believe that there is a single UN member state that does not violate international law at all – when it comes to human rights. But in modern history, Israel is the occupying power that has occupied a country the longest, they practice apartheid – and committing genocide, now as we speak. And they have unprecedented support from most Western states.”

Epistemic violence and the child

The West has a long history with ethnic cleansing - Israel is not alone in this regard. What the Americans did to the indigenous people – or the abuses of the colonists France and Great Britain – were extremely brutal. But like the Israeli historian Ilan cardboard (The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, 2006) have written about, Israel is a special case. Today, the abuses also start from the narrative we and the media tell ourselves – how the media cover these abuses. I ask Albanese:
"Yes, it is about the narrative that is being spread. I often talk about epistemic vold, that is, the violence in the way knowledge about Palestine and the Palestinians is shaped and disseminated: both denying the nakba (the "catastrophe" of 1948), denying the Palestinians human rights, and denying the illegality of the occupation, are part of this violence. To deny Israeli crimes, to call the Palestinians "terrorists", to portray them as a security threat or as savages just waiting to strike at the Israelis. This violence projects an inaccurate and dehumanizing reality.”

"Children are also a particularly vulnerable target in genocide."

Since Israel's massive attack on Gaza last October thousands of children have been killed. This is also an important topic for Albanese: "The most vulnerable, the most frail in a society are undoubtedly children. Therefore, international law is also more protective for children, because they often become victims in a reality where they have neither any influence nor decisive choices. Children is also a particularly vulnerable target in genocide. The abuser does not see a child as a child, but as the seed of a future threat. This is clearly shown by the behavior of the Israeli army in Gaza. This is what I studied in one of my reports, where I condemned how Israel has "unchilded", that is, deprived them of their childhood. This is another sign of genocide – by compromising childhood you undermine future generations.”

Impunity and international law

The obvious topic to discuss with a jurist like Albanese is impunityone Israel has internationally. The Israelis have continued with their abuses Palestinianne for several decades without being punished for it: "Israel has had impunity for a very long time. And that is due to a combination of reasons that are both historical and political. Israel was born as an exceptional state with respect to international law. It was seen as a state that was created to remedy the atrocities of the holocaust. But we should remember that the creation of the State of Israel was accompanied by massacres, mass expulsions, collective threats, forced relocation of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and ultimately the dismemberment of that nation and the condemnation of this nation into exile.”

Because Albanian is occupationan “in its essence irretrievably illegal. Israel has maintained this occupation under the guise of security – but it is security for its plan to colonize. And to do so, they have committed crime after crime. And they have benefited from impunity in their own system, since all Israeli institutions, including the Israeli Supreme Court, have played a role in the normalization and institutionalization of the occupation and displacement of the Palestinians during the occupation. And internationally, primarily the United States – I mean, I'm not excusing Europe nor Norway either – everyone has played a role in supporting or simply tolerating Israel's impunity. This is the reality"

"We should remember that the establishment of the State of Israel was accompanied by massacres, mass expulsions, collective threats, forced displacements, the splitting of a nation and the condemnation of that nation into exile."

I ask where ultimately the power to apply international law is when it is ignored in such a way, as by the US, supporting the Israeli attacks with weapons? "International law cannot function without a principled policy. And the political elites are literally failing international law, where it is most needed, to prevent, deal with, stop and punish their heinous crimes. There is a complete difference between what prevailing politics stands for, and what international law stands for now."

Democracy and rule-based order

Israel defines itself as a democracy which is surrounded by others in the Middle East. They have a supreme court, a parliament, an elected government, etc. Albanese looks at me with a smile:
"This is the biggest contradiction in the country. But it is a facade, and that facade is crumbling. The reality is that Israel has maintained a system of government that grossly violates the international treaties it has signed – towards all Palestinians, albeit in different ways. Even the country's own Palestinian population – that is, those Palestinians who hold Israeli citizenship – have been treated as second-class citizens and discriminated against since the establishment of the State of Israel. They have been deprived of their rights, humiliated and forced into submission. For the Palestinians in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and in East Jerusalem, reality has always been characterized by a state of emergency and complete oppression."

The old geopolitical order, based on democracy and rule-based order and rights, has changed where the public is exposed to so many lies, fake news and propaganda. The question is therefore what kind of society are we heading towards when trust in politics and authorities is increasingly erased by a system where "might is right" – where someone just dictates their own 'rules'?
"The US has pushed for a term that seems quite neutral and actually innocent – rule-based order. But whose rules are we talking about? We must talk about an order based on international law, where the rules are determined and agreed upon by the international community, through either treaties or customary law. These days the oppressed are sacrificed on the altar of political convenience.”

The military-industrial complex

We move on to talk about today military industriale complex – as maintained or strengthened by the USA, NATO and its allies – a "complex" NATO's Norwegian Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg stands at the forefront with a rhetorical 'new speech' in which "weapons create peace". So what about the interests behind it, I ask Albanese:

"I see economic, financial, military and security-related interests. Antony Loewenstein recently published a book, The Palestine Laboratory >(2023), which exposes Israel's military industry and how many countries make money with Israel – by sacrificing the Palestinians. In this military scheme, the Palestinians are guinea pigs arms and military strategies are tested on – before these weapons are sold abroad. Israel is also testing siege strategies – which some researchers say can be very practical tests for other countries looking for concrete solutions to protect their borders as well. The cynicism of the times we live in is overwhelming.”

I mention the documentary film The Law in These Parts >(2011), directed by Israeli Ra'anan Alexandrowicz, which shows how Israel creates new laws and regulations to justify its own interests, followed by abuses and atrocities. Law expert Albanese has seen this film: "This documentary reveals what I talk about in my report, namely that Israel has used international humanitarian law to cover up crimes. Israel has wrapped all its military actions in legal jargon to make them more palatable, to secure them a semblance of legitimacy. But in reality the crimes become identifiable.”

What about the international reaction to weapon supportn from the USA to Israel. Or what about the invasion that Russia did in Ukraine? Is there a double standard when it comes to sanctions against the aggressor and armed support for the oppressed, I ask Albanese:

"The situation in Ukraine falls outside my mandate, and I cannot comment on it. But the double standard in the way Western countries in particular have approached Russia and Israel for their violation of international law, particularly the self-determination of other peoples, the right of occupation and the international law of war, is clear. Russia violated international law in the most egregious way: There was the immediate assessment, and then came the sanctions. Here, the West did not wait for an international court to be established. It was a war of aggression and they acted on that basis. They even put pressure on the ICC (International Criminal Court), of which neither Russia nor Ukraine is a part, to launch an investigation. But with Palestine, all possible excuses are found to avoid responsibility. This is because you have a double standard, and because the Palestinians are discriminated against."

October 7. and ethics of consequence

What about the attack on Israel and civilians, which was committed by Hamas and others from Gaza on October 7? Can this be understood from a consequence ethics, where the means are justified by the end to be achieved? This subjugated people who have been oppressed for decades have the right under international law to defend themselves against the colonist. And 7 October has now caused parts of the world to become more involved in the Palestinians' situation. When I interviewed PLO politician Hanan Ashrawi in Ramallah a few years ago, she changed her mind and said, "It has to get worse before it can get better." So what does Albanese think about this?
"I will never be able to justify the strategy used by both Hamas and the Israelis, which has been targeting civilians – the initial attack that did not have (or resulted in having) only a military target, and then the violent Israeli military response that soon showed itself to be a war of annihilation. It is a disaster of all proportions. I don't think anyone will come out victorious from this. Gaza is destroyed today. Israel conducts a ethnic cleansing of Gaza through this genocide. There are no winnings. No one wins in this one war...

"No one wins in such a war."

"Armed resistance is protected under international law, but armed resistance cannot be directed against civilians. And when it does, the perpetrators must be held accountable. Instead, what has happened is that Israel's rage and war against the Palestinians has been justified – by collective punishment, by holding them all 'responsible'. But the population of Gaza has been confined in a ghetto without freedom. A small minority of them have committed crimes on October 7: So why must we accept that all of them should be punished?"

What about the hostages?

Again – regarding the use of military force: In June, an Israeli military operation was carried out to liberate hostages who was hidden in the Nuseirat refugee camp in central Gaza. It was then reported that 274 Palestinians were killed, and 698 others were injured in connection with the 'rescue operation', according to the authorities in the Gaza Strip:
“First, the hostages – whose pain is unimaginable as they are in the same hell as the Palestinians right now – could have been freed and set free without bloodshed. Analysts have been saying that for months, including the newspaper Haaretz. Israel could have freed the hostages within the first week. They chose instead to carry out a full-scale war against all the Palestinians in Gaza."

"Israel could have freed the hostages in the first week."

“Why did Israel do it? For many reasons, including to teach the Palestinians a lesson. But this has been a genocide. And this time Israel will not escape the judgment of history.”

Fairness

Finally: I ask how early the engagement is for human rightsone started for Albanese:
“I've always been like this, but I've become tougher. I was more afraid before. Now that I have children, I am stronger because I am seriously concerned about the world we live in. And with the direction it is going, I get new energy when I see that people in different countries, especially young people, are now protesting against it the injustice experienced by the Palestinians. They also connect it Palestiniane case to other issues of social injustice, environmental injustice and injustice against refugees or migrants. Many young people are inspired and passionate about justice. I'm happy to be involved with them and I hope I can make a small contribution to that.”

Also see the book review of her latest book at
https://www.nytid.no/men-det-internasjonale-samfunnet-reagerer-ikke/
Watch our short film with Albanese https://vimeo.com/1005051916

Norway and the Oslo Agreement

As is well known, Norway was behind Oslo Accords (1993–95), the secret negotiations in which the Palestinian Authority (PA) was created as a consequence, and the West Bank was divided into three parts with more or less autonomy. But today, after the attacks on Gaza – and for the past decades – Israeli soldiers have raided and harassed this population constantly. Albanese explains, now 76 years later after it all started with the 'Nakba' ('catastrophe': expulsion) in 1948:

"The Nakba is a phenomenon that has never ended. The Nakba is the expulsion of the Palestinians from their original homeland, which began in 1947 following the partition plan. It had been prepared for 30 years of British colonialism. It accelerated in 1949, 1967 and now. It has long been a silent nakba. The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their land has never ended.”

“The Oslo Accords have turned out to be a trap for the Palestinians – it worked well from an Israeli perspective because it was never intended to create an independent and fully sovereign state. It only concerned self-government. And this self-rule has enabled Israel to consolidate its control over the occupied Palestinian territories – and to continue the fragmentation and segregation of the Palestinians.”

“It has been a silent nakba. The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians from their land has never ended.”

The Norwegian diplomats behind the Oslo agreement at the time at least tried to help, as a "back channel" – but Albanese continues:

"After my visit to Norway, I wrote a public letter to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, in which I encouraged Norway to make a critical assessment of the Oslo Agreement in connection with last year's 30th anniversary, and see how to build on what could be learned from the experience since then. Norway has a significant responsibility for having led these agreements, but also as coordinator for the humanitarian donor group of donor countries (AHLC)."

"For so many years, Norway has not recognized the state of Palestine, and that is disappointing."

It has been a long time since Sweden recognized Palestine, and the Swedes have been 'punished' for it. Many of us have asked why Norway did not do the same, but as we know, Norway has supported Israel "as friends". But Norway's prime ministers and foreign ministers just announced this summer that they accept Palestine as a state (along with Ireland and Spain):

"For so many years, Norway has not recognized the state of Palestine, and that is disappointing. I see that the wind is about to turn now, and I really hope that Norway will be among the principled countries on our continent that will break with Israel's impunity and lack of accountability. Until now, this has been the rule. Now, after the genocide, things will hopefully change.”

Francesca P. Albanese

Francesca P. Albanese holds a law degree with honors from the University of Pisa and a master's degree in human rights from SOAS University of London. She is associated with the Institute for the Study of International Migration at Georgetown University, and is a senior advisor for Migration and Forced Displacement at the non-profit organization Arab Renaissance for Democracy and Development (ARDD). Before she started working in academia and published Palestinian Refugees in International Law (Oxford University Press, 2020), she worked for ten years as a human rights expert for the UN, including for the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and the UN aid organization for Palestinian refugees. During this period, she has advised the UN, governments and civil society in the Middle East, North Africa and the Asia-Pacific region – on human rights and their application and norms, particularly for vulnerable groups such as refugees and migrants.

She lectures on international law and forced displacement at both European and Arab universities, and participates in conferences and public events about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Immediately after the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip in 2023, Albanese called for an urgent truce and warned that the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip were in danger of being subjected to "ethnic cleansing". She adds: “Under the fog of war, Israel has forcibly displaced hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. They did that in 1948 and 1967, and now they got another opportunity to do it again. The goal is to take as much land as possible from what is left of historic Palestine." On March 26 this year, Albanese reported to the UN Human Rights Council that Israel's actions in Gaza amount to genocide.

 The interview has been translated from English by the editor. The interview is one of three international in-depth interviews supported by Fritt Ord (combined with a short film).
The first was with Elisabeth Hoff in Rome, and the next comes from Istanbul.